is it beyond the engination that he be constructed this this whole thing with a defense mechanism? i don't think it is. >> rose: one last thing about lance armstrong. i sat today at lunch way friend of mine who lost a woman that he loved deeply. it was not marriage but great-- very, very, very close-- to cancer. and he said to me she was inspired by his story-- not of the foundation is it, the fact that he beat cancer, the idea of that was an inspiration to him. he doesn't deserve any credit for that because you could be inspired by a whole range of other people. you didn't do anything to make a link between that person. that was an interesting ideal. >> i don't disagree with that possibility but i also wonder what that person would have said no. now that we know about his potential -- >> rose: that person died. >> so we'll never know. >> rose: exactly. >> and we may never know what lance armstrong's real motivation is. i'm not sure i believe anymore. there have been many cheats but this was a great cheat. he was a seven-time -- >> rose: i've asked people to define the level of thi